Curse

Balan Makki · Dec 31, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

"To get to what's best" is what I referred to the best qualities of both games: In Guild Wars, it takes a long time to get to the best - GvG. You need a large number of skills unlocked as well as with equipment. Sure, you can buy an unlock pack, but that's a hefty fine.

I think it's more a players personal "Skill"--the player's ability--not game skills that separates GW from WoW.

Being a "casual player" might indicate they are gainfully employed, that they can purchase the PvP packs. Casual is very viable in GW, it is just difficult to break the learning curve early on. Even purchasing all the GW content; it is a lot cheaper than playing the endless hours to Raiding/grinding for top Stats in WoW . . . Regardless of the fee, the real-life overhead is massive.

Bryant Again · Jan 01, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

I think it's more a players personal "Skill"--the player's ability--not game skills that separates GW from WoW.

This I can't really comment on since GW no longer challenges me (hence my continued subscription of WoW.) While it is true that more thought process goes into a build rather than that of a WoW character, there is a certain peak you can reach where nothing in PvE is really challenging or difficult. Of course this is still me talking.

However, one concern of mine is the issue of "faking it." Why is it that the PvX wiki is so popular? Because the game relies heavily on skills and builds. The hard part is not in using the build but putting it together, and being able to just grab a build of the web so easily can really take out the thought process.

Now with WoW, you still need a bit of time and effort into getting all of those epics. Sure, you could just eBay and take all that effort out the window, but 1. Are you really willing to pay so much money (they can get expensive) for a 3D avatar that 2. could be banned quite easily?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Being a "casual player" might indicate they are gainfully employed, that they can purchase the PvP packs. Casual is very viable in GW, it is just difficult to break the learning curve early on. Even purchasing all the GW content; it is a lot cheaper than playing the endless hours to Raiding/grinding for top Stats. Regardless of the fee, the real-life overhead is massive.

But you still have to either A. Dish out a lot of cash or B. Spend a *lot* of time unlocking everything. The fact that this goes well against the casual player is one thing most everyone can agree on with Guild Wars PvP, and that's also its downfall in that regards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Wouldn't Server quality in WoW depend on the server your on?

In terms of like social quality? Then yeah it does depend on the server and it's people.

Zhack · Jan 01, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Don't really understand why you try to write an unbiased comparison and then puts [subjective] in front of everything you write, seems kinda useless imo.
Only a WoW fanboy can say that WoW has better/equal graphics than GW.
Ive only tried WoW on a small scale and never got further then lvl 15 so i can't pretend to know anything about the game mechanics, but i must say i wasn't impressed at all of what i saw, i simply can't understand why people get so addicted to it.
There are so many games just like it out there, a lot of them free of monthly charge.
Not to say GW doesnt have it's flaws, but at least its one of a kind...

doctorn · Jan 01, 2008, 04:58 AM // 04:58

I think there are two different comparisons going on here.

First. Comparison between two *genres* of games. "Collect your gear and boast with it" style MMORPG vs the GW genre. I am even not sure how to call the latter since there are not so many other games out in this genre. Let it be CORPG then as A net calls it.

Second. Comparison between two *games* as representatives of the genres. Here, WoW is definitely the most popular, with most content and possibly also objectively best in its genre. (Not sure about the latter, may be somebody can correct me.) GW is just unique in its genre. (Same - correct me?)

I have *not* played WoW so I don't know how does it do as a game. I don't like the genre. In the case of GW, I personally like the genre, I just wish GW would be a better game. (I am mostly annoyed by the lack of social interaction - and means to achieve it, by the lack of Z axis. I'd also like to have a RvR PvP; it would be a chaos but it would be a easy entrance for beginners who then could start considering other arenas.) Let's wait for GW2...

Biostem · Jan 01, 2008, 05:14 AM // 05:14

I think the best way to look at it is to think of a pro bowler vs an avid bowler.

The pro bowler makes a big deal about his gear, and puts a lot of emphasis on his "pro" status.

The avid bowler might bowl on a league, and may even own his own ball, but they aren't a defining part of his person, and he wouldn't make a big deal about having to bowl w/o his gear.

In the case of GW and WoW, GW is the avid bowler and WoW is the pro.

The WoW player, since they pay monthly, put a lot of emphasis on "WoW time", and since it is a much longer game, every level, every item is given significance.

The GW player has a more relaxed outlook; ok so I can't play today because I have other obligations, I'm not really losing out because I don't pay each month. Each level gained or item found, however, is not as significant because they can get max stuff relatively easily. This is a plus if you don't have a lot of time to grind, but a minus if you "need" rare or unique items to distinguish you. Another plus, however, is that you can grind for this stuff if you feel the need to.

Overall, my only gripe w/ WoW is the much slower travel speeds, the lesser graphical detail, and the inability to go as far w/o a human party. Both games definitely have their merits, and, (of course), the above is my opinion...

Bryant Again · Jan 01, 2008, 05:19 AM // 05:19

I don't put emphasis on the fact that I'm a "pro" or that I need to distinguish myself, I just need the gear to experience the later levels in the game. Gear is the only way you can truly progress your character without a holy-shit-that's-high level cap.

Plus, picking up a powerful sword or shield is pretty damn nifty : )

Also, saying they're different bowlers can be a bit misleading since both games appeal to vastly different crowds.

Fril Estelin · Jan 01, 2008, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Also, saying they're different bowlers can be a bit misleading since both games appeal to vastly different crowds.

I'm really not sure about that. The more I read on this topic, the more it seems to me that a lot of players cross between the 2 games, if not playing them at the same time. WoW players come to GW because they're fed up with the fees and the difficulty to get the best gears, or want a really challenging PvP, while GW players come to WoW for its level of support and permanence. So overall the two communities are not so separate and players not so different.

WoW definitely has the advantage, but I'd say it's more a question of "sheer numbers" (Blizzard is steam-rolling in this business, let's not forget that they didn't started from like Anet, they had 3 very successfull games before them; the merge with Activision only confirms that and they'll continue to be very successful for a very long time) than of subjective opinion. I'll continue to say that IMHO Anet's vision of the genre is more balanced and nuanced, while Blizzard more heavily relies on making it "big", rather than "good", the subjectivity of which is not a reason not to try to (and Anet made bolder moves than Blizzard given that it is small and can do so).

People have fun on both sides of the electronic MMO divide (or whatever you call it). I guess that WoW players feel that WoW is so big (in terms of subscribes and universe) that they don't feel threatened by GW or its players' opinions. While GW being small is always at the risk of Blizzard/WoW taking on their small world (Shatner and Mister T advertising WoW on tv? I'd rather read the MMORPG.com's review of EotN...) and its players also clearly see some aspects of both games that could be improved (WoW, being the monopoly of MMOs, does not need to improve drastically, only to change at a pace satisfying to its population).

I think that in the end all GW and WoW players are happy enough not to start a revolution. We're probably discussing a non-problem

. Nevertheless, I very much liked trm819's idea of GW2 giving the choice to player on instancing or not, that would be really great and probably an extremely difficult architectural challenge. But well, with Anet we can expect a lot

.

Redfeather1975 · Jan 01, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Fril Estelin, the funny part is the WoW ads are all over gwonline's forums.
But I don't mind, I played both and saw them as 2 different games.
I doubt GW is trying to dominate anything. Strain sounds like he doesn't want people to play any game exclusively too.
I don't know why so many people compare GW and WoW.

Let's start comparing Street Fighter to Tekken now.

Fril Estelin · Jan 01, 2008, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

I don't know why so many people compare GW and WoW.

Well, honestly, this thread was quite good. You can learn a few things, correct misconceptions and fight prejudices (WoW is all this, GW is all that). Even if it does not change your vision of both games (because it was correct in the first place?), it may do so for other people. It did for me

.

Fight!

Balan Makki · Jan 01, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

But you still have to either A. Dish out a lot of cash or B. Spend a *lot* of time unlocking everything. The fact that this goes well against the casual player is one thing most everyone can agree on with Guild Wars PvP, and that's also its downfall in that regards.

Chump change compared to the amount of GRIND WoW requires. A couple of hundred dollars to unlock everything, compared to a couple of hundred days (in hours Thousands of hours), get a job, you'll understand--There is absolutely NO comparison. And you fooling yourself if you think ANYTHING is challenging in WoW. Herding Cats is challenging, and that's about all your going to get when GRINDING raid dungeons.

WoW = Massive Grind, a little skill. To advance your character.

GW = Skill, much less grind. To advance your character.

WoW = Massive GRIND to continue your Journey

GW = Very little grind to continue or Complete your journey.

Cacheelma · Jan 01, 2008, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Balan, I think it's clear enough for us to understand that you hate WoW and has long become GW's BFB. So I guess you can tone down your WoW hatred a little bit or maybe try not to express it here without anything else to support your words other than your feeling, eh?

Shadow Longstem · Jan 01, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

personally, i feel WoWs dungeon require more co-ordination then GW's does but less individual skill during combat, the dances are harder to learn. I personally dont find WoW appealing as the gameplay is too linear for me [the builds, the instance routines etc, the progression of ur toon, required time investment etc] but it does hav alot of content and big brand company to back its development and marketing, so its no suprise that more ppl prefer it to GW.

O yeah sum1 said earlier that only poor ppl and kids play GW? i play it cos it doesnt require no way near as much grind to mmo's of the evercrack model and also allows a higher degree of freedom in terms of builds and play style, and also think it requires more individual skill during combat - while also allowing casual gaming style to be more rewarding, since i dont want to b glued to the pc screen i prefer this. That and the fact that i dont feel WoW is worth paying for, to me it seems more like a lifestyle then a game, and a lifestyle id rather not hav and dont want to pay for - this is imo 1 of the reasons y u get some wow fan boys shooting down every other mmo and boasting about there own 1 imo, theyre defending their money investment and lifestyle and need to prove to themselves and to others that it was all worth while

, dont get me wrong though i do think WoW has some pretty cool features but overall i dont like it.

anyway thats just my opinion.

Terraban · Jan 01, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

WoW = Massive Grind, a little skill. To advance your character.

GW = Skill, much less grind. To advance your character.

WoW = Massive GRIND to continue your Journey

GW = Very little grind to continue or Complete your journey.

WoW = Massive Grind, a little skill. To advance your character.

GW = NO skill, NO grind. To advance your character.

WoW = Massive GRIND to continue your Journey

GW = No effort at all to continue or Complete your journey.

Guild Wars is so ridiculously easy in 95% of the game. There is no character advancement. Guild Wars greatly resembles a child's 2D side-scrolling "educational" game. Can't die, your character doesn't get any better, and it takes as much brain function as a 3 year old can put out.

The sad thing is, many people struggle with it, which just blows my mind.

WoW....grind, bad graphics.

One thing that WoW does have over Guild Wars is....the ability to do SOMETHING that doesn't consist of fighting. The ability to mine, craft armor, craft weapons, enchant, and all of that stuff IMO adds a lot to the game.

7,000 hours on GW
Level 20ish, twice on WoW

Bored to hell with Guild Wars, no incentive to play WoW...

Actually playing Oblivion, and Warcraft 3 Custom Maps nowadays.

tmr819 · Jan 01, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Nevertheless, I very much liked trm819's idea of GW2 giving the choice to player on instancing or not, that would be really great and probably an extremely difficult architectural challenge. But well, with Anet we can expect a lot

.

When I wrote that I had been thinking of the number of times GW actually does exactly that -- for example, there are quests that convert town areas (which are normally persistent, obviously) into instance areas, such as when you have to fight torment creatures in Kaineng City or Lion's Arch, etc.

From a coding standpoint, it does not seem like it would be that much of a challenge to design "parallel" regions, one instanced and the other not, that the player could then choose to enter based on some UI option (like the way selecting a district is handled now).

In "Persistent Mode", you would encounter other players and perform quests and fight mobs much like you would in a standard MMO such as WoW.

In "Instanced Mode", you would enter an IDENTICAL region, but with mobs, quests, etc., all scaled to match a player/hench group much as is done in GW1.

If ArenaNet did offer such an option, I'd love for them to make the instanced areas require smaller groups (I have always felt 8 is way too many). It would be better to limit instanced areas (except for perhaps mega-endgame encounters or elite dungeons) to 1 to (at most) 6 players.

Basically, if you entered a region in "instanced mode" with fewer than the maximum players, your xp, loot, etc. would increase, providing a range of hard to harder modes depending on party size.

For solo-oriented players, you could then offer 1 to 5 fully customizable Heroes (including primary profession) that could be used only in instances (i.e., dungeons/missions) or "Instance Mode" regions.

If GW2 were set up in such a way, I would enjoy playing regions both ways -- because I enjoy both playing styles and can see the benefits of both persistence and instancing. If ArenaNet comes up with anything like this, I think they would have a real winner of a game on their hands.

EDIT: Moreover, there would never be any waiting around for other players to fill out your group, which is and always has been my single biggest gripe with WoW and other MMOs of that genre.

Saraphim · Jan 01, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

/trivial post warning

Well one thing WoW did beat out GW on for me this year was the Winter Veil present:

Logged in with hubby, both got a "Rocketbot" (mini robot) present from under the tree. We both summoned it and they immediately fired two rockets at each other and mine blew the crap out of his.*

*Not permanently, his just got unsummoned, but hey it made me laugh.

Fril Estelin · Jan 01, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmr819

From a coding standpoint, it does not seem like it would be that much of a challenge to design "parallel" regions, one instanced and the other not, that the player could then choose to enter based on some UI option (like the way selecting a district is handled now).

Short reply here (so that the thread is not hijacked): it would be much more difficult than you think, because there's an obvious balance to maintain in order to run the system efficiently and at a controlled cost (the only way Anet can maintain the no-monthly-fee). Anyway, it does make a lot of sense as you explain.

tmr819 · Jan 01, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Short reply here (so that the thread is not hijacked): it would be much more difficult than you think, because there's an obvious balance to maintain in order to run the system efficiently and at a controlled cost (the only way Anet can maintain the no-monthly-fee). Anyway, it does make a lot of sense as you explain.

OK. Thanks. I'm no programmer, so it's all "easy" to me. lol.

Zinger314 · Jan 01, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Point of comment regarding gear progression in WoW: In patch 2.3, the Season 3 ("Vengeful Gladiator") Arena Armor sets, equal to Tier 6 armor (i.e. end-game raiding), can be obtained in a few months without serious playtime commitment or skill.

The trick is that you get Arena points even when you lose in 5v5 Arenas. So no matter how much you suck, you can eventually get epics. You can get atleast a few hundred Arena points per week with this method, and an epic armor piece (out of 5) costs between 1,000-2,000 Arena points. So you can do anything you want, just do only 10 matches a week, and eventually get epics.

How more casual friendly can you get?

Some on the WoW forums, infact, complain that this is too unfair to raiders, as it's basically "welfare epics." (as coined by the WoW PvE developer)

I myself was unable to get an Arena team for this trick, since everyone I knew took the Arena somewhat seriously...

(And in unrelated news, my Xbox 360 RRODed, so no Mass Effect for me. Hmm. Might as well find something to play on my Wii.)

Bryant Again · Jan 01, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I'm really not sure about that. The more I read on this topic, the more it seems to me that a lot of players cross between the 2 games, if not playing them at the same time. WoW players come to GW because they're fed up with the fees and the difficulty to get the best gears, or want a really challenging PvP, while GW players come to WoW for its level of support and permanence. So overall the two communities are not so separate and players not so different.

If a friend in WoW says "Bryant, I ain't gonna be able to play WoW no more due to real-life stuff. Any games you'd recommend that can still sate my interests?", I'd say "buy Oblivion."

It's not a matter of fees/no-fees but of interests. Players enjoy WoW because of the high levels and larger reliance on gear - and that's why they're a bit disappointed when they come to GW. It's not that it's reliance of skill over gear, it's the fact that there's *no* reliance on gear. It's why I don't call GW an MMO: It has little to appeal to that audience.

And most of the WoW-to-GW players that I know come to GW because they're totally spiteful of WoW, not because of the PvP. I've also known those same players to be massively disappointed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

I don't know why so many people compare GW and WoW.

It's mostly done by Guild Wars players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

And you fooling yourself if you think ANYTHING is challenging in WoW. Herding Cats is challenging, and that's about all your going to get when GRINDING raid dungeons.

WoW isn't challenging? Then GW is Diablo on "I'm Too Young To Die." On Guild Wars I've hit the wall. On WoW I have not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

I myself was unable to get an Arena team for this trick, since everyone I knew took the Arena somewhat seriously...

It's less of a trick and more just how the game is.

And lol at the people complaining. I remember people were complaining that "PEOPLES LEVEL TOO FAST" due to the leveling changes.

And also, you can now get T1 Arena (still a kickass set) for not everyone playing in the arena anymore - you can now purchase those sets with honor points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

(And in unrelated news, my Xbox 360 RRODed, so no Mass Effect for me. Hmm. Might as well find something to play on my Wii.)

TF2? I'm always playin'...

AlienFromBeyond · Jan 01, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

I first began online gaming in 2002 (yes, when I was 12, sue me, CAPTA)

You're only 17? Aw, itty bitty baby :P.